061 - Parenting Emotionally Intense Kids with Anouk Briere-Godbout

In this episode of the Discerning Parenting Podcast, you are in for an insightful discussion on understanding and supporting emotionally intense children. With us is a seasoned mom and expert in social work, Anouk Briere-Godbout, who herself is raising three emotionally intense kids. The episode promises a wealth of practical wisdom and firsthand experience.

Anouk's journey as both a parent and a professional spans over 15 years, providing her with a unique blend of theoretical knowledge and real-world expertise. As a mom who intimately understands the challenges of nurturing emotionally intense children, she brings a compassionate and empathetic perspective to the table.

Whether you're a parent grappling with the nuances of raising an emotionally intense child or simply curious about this topic, this episode provides invaluable wisdom and guidance. Join us as we embark on a journey to better understand and support these remarkable young individuals.

About our guest:
Anouk is a mom of three emotionally intense kids, who has a Master's in Social Work and has been supporting parents for 15 years (and that's how long she’s been a mom!). She now supports parents of emotionally intense kids for whom nothing in the “general parenting advice” seems to work so they feel confident in trying different things that fit their kids' needs better.

Listen to Anouk's podcast, Parenting the Intensity.
Find Anouk on social media - @parentingtheintensity

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Transcript

 For example, you see a child in a store, uh, next to the counter that will say, I want chocolate. And then the parents say no. And the child would like tromp their feet on the ground saying, I want chocolate. That kid is not emotionally intense. That's just a kid that wants something and that is affirming themselves.

And that's just normal in the development. At some point it will pass. But the child at the counter that you say no to a chocolate bar and just Melt on the floor, that's an emotionally intense child. The difference is that the first one controls the reaction.  They are in control of what's happening. Yes, they are stomping their feet because they're not happy, but they're still in control.

The other one is not in control, so it's not their fault. They just lost control when you said no for many different reasons, but they just cannot handle and it's not because they were never frustrated I can say from experience and from my personal and professional experience, they have most likely been told no way more than the other child.

Yes, exactly.

Are there days you feel you've had it with the sleepless nights, the temper tantrums, the constant fatigue of trying to keep up with an active baby? Does it feel like you're always working so hard as a parent, trying to do everything for your kids and family, and yet it never feels enough? We get it. You love your child more than anything, and yet parenting is also exhausting and challenging.

Especially when you're bombarded with criticism and pressure to be the perfect parent. Which, spoiler alert, does not exist. That's why we created Discerning Parenting, the podcast that helps you cut through the noise and focus on what truly matters in your parenting journey. This podcast is jam packed with valuable insights and practical tips specifically tailored for parents of kids age 5 and below.

So join us and discover how you can use the combined power of science, knowing your child, and your own intuition in making the best parenting decisions for you and your family.    

Today to talk about emotionally intense kids, I'm so thrilled to have Anouk, a mom of three emotionally intense kids who has a master's in social work and has been supporting parents for 15 years. And that's how long she's been a mom. She now supports parents of emotionally intense kids for whom nothing in the general parenting advice seems to work.

So, she helps them feel confident in trying different things that fit their kids needs better. So, Anouk, it's so wonderful to have you here. You have both the credentials and the experience, and you walk the talk. And your story is such a powerful one, and I think our listeners will appreciate hearing it from you firsthand.

Can you share with us your story about how you came to be doing what you do?  Yeah, sure. Thank you for having me, Victoria. It's a pleasure to be here.  I would say it's, it's been a complicated, I think for everyone it's a bit complicated. I didn't do a really straight path, neither in business or parenting  or like professionally, but I  I got my kids quite young from, for here in general, people get kids around 30 years old.

My, my youngest, I was not quite 25 when he my oldest when he was born.  And, I really, like, at the beginning was, it was an easy, that child was an easy child, honestly, when he was a baby. I know many listeners can relate.  Yeah, yeah, he slept. A high needs baby, yeah. Yeah, but that one was pretty calm, honestly, compared to others.

 And he slept really well, really fast, which was absolutely not the case with my second child. So, it's the first, I would say, step when I realized that,  I was not really in control of any of that, those things, like all the things you say, you see around about how to make a baby sleep. My first, I was putting him in his, in his bed at like six weeks old.

He was sleeping 12 hours through the night. Like it was not a question. And my second, it took six years before she slept through the night.  And I was lucky to have the first one slept that well because I knew by then that it wasn't my fault, basically.  Because I feel there's a lot of shame around  Around that when your child doesn't sleep, it's like, it's your fault if that child is not sleeping.

And I put that in air quotes because it's not.  But that's a lot of what we hear around,  around sleep for babies and we should do this and that. to have them sleep. But honestly, and that was like my first  time I realized how little we really control of our kids life if we want to at least respect them a little bit and how they are.

I could have left my daughter cry her eyes out for hours and hours on end and she might have fallen asleep at some point, but it would not have been a good idea on the long run.  Now I can say that they're both teens and they both sleep through the night by themselves.  So it will come at some point.

 But I, I,  I, other than knowing I was struggling with them, I had only them. And  even if I went back to school, became a social worker at that point, and I work in a hospital and I work with kids that had trauma. And with kids that are medical issues. So I basically always work with kids with special needs. 

And so that was my reference of what was kids. And I knew how kids develop in general,  but I realized, honestly, that was a really recent realization. I realized I know nothing about raising normal kids because I don't have any, and I've never worked with parents that have normal kids or almost never maybe the baby's years, but not more than that.

And so it's really. It took me a while to realize that there was something up with my kids that was not normal experience as a parent.  And I was looking at all the recommendation that we see everywhere and nothing was working. And I was really struggling up until in the teenage years of my two oldest, because I have two teens and a four, almost five year old.

Then I realized that they, they got diagnosis. And I realized that What I was experiencing was not normal, and how many other parents were going through that, because if we take all the reasons why kids can be emotionally intense  There's a lot of them, and so there's a lot of emotionally intense kids, and most of the time what we see out there as general parenting advice, they're not, it's not working for those kids, and it's, it's even often making things worse.

And so that's why I decided to do, like to focus on that, that section of the parents, the ones that might have been, some do have diagnosis for their kids, but some might not, and they don't know why. They cannot do it. And most of the time, we feel like failure when we're trying, we're learning, we're reading, and we're giving all those advice, and it's not working.

And we're told again and again, you're just not trying hard enough. Yes. Try again. You didn't try  enough. And I've heard that, like, I work with a lot of other professionals, and I've heard many professional Tell that about parents or to parents and I'm like, well, yeah, sometimes it's true. If we try something once and it's not working, it's not a proof of anything.

But when you've been trying the same thing again and again and again, and then something else because it's not working again, again, again. And then that thing is working. It's not us as parents. It's not that it's something that it's not the child's fault. There's something up with the child, but it's not the child's fault.

The child is not doing that on purpose.  That's a long  story, but yeah, that's why I decided to narrow down on  those parents because I wanted to help them realize that there's another way  that they can be doing things. And so, And that they're not failure, most importantly, and that they can follow like their instincts because most of the time we've been  so judged and so told to do things that go against what we think is good for our child that we cannot follow our instincts anymore.

So it's like relearning to follow that instinct that we all have as parents, but that we kind of lost somewhere in the way.  Wow, you are a trailblazer and I imagine all of the questioning and second guessing that you had to go through during that stage to get to where you are now. So, who are emotionally intense kids?

What does it mean to be emotionally intense? I would say there's like, I see two profiles in general, so there's that, and of course there can be mixed profiles, but in general there are two main profiles. There's the kid who goes, It's intense everywhere. So it's a child that will be intense at school or at daycare or and at home.

So it's a child that will react really fast to things that will add some trouble calming down or sometimes they will go very intensely in the crisis and then go back to normal as if nothing happened very fast and you are left in like, wow, what just happened? And there's also they can go on these extreme mood swings.

Yeah, really. And, and that's the child that the daycare or school is going to call you like every day because there's something up. And you're going to fear the number of the school and always ask yourself, like, what happened again this day? And you'll have to go get your child from school. And for some parents, it's even getting kicked out of preschool and many times getting kicked out of school in their school process.

 And lots of, lots of judgment from, from schools. And for, and let's be honest, some wonderful teachers too that are able to deal with those kids. But from my experience, they're a minority because they're not trained for that. And the other profile that we see is a child that will keep it together really well in public.

So it's a child that seems very calm, very compliant, and everything is well, but then when they come home, they lash out completely. And the parents are left dealing with everything, and you have a judgment in the other side, which is like, but it's your problem because it's happening at home, so it's not our problem at the school or daycare, because it's happening at home.

And so, You must be doing something wrong because we don't have any problem and then they don't want to do anything. So you have No call from school ever, but you know as the parent there's some things going on, but you're doubting that it must be me because it's always at home. But no, in general, there's, there's really, really little situation when that's the case.

It's really exceptions in general, it's because the kids feel safe at home, so they can lash out and leave all the  It's like when we are at work and we are stressed, we won't lash out our clients or our colleagues. We will lash out our partner when we go back home. And we will be mad, not necessarily at our partner, but we will be mad in general. 

let out those emotions. It's the same for kids when they come home, but they don't know how to do it in a socially acceptable way most of the time. So they will kick, they will bite, they will cry, they will do anything you can imagine. So that's the two brain profile, I would say. Yeah, and having these different profiles and know one kid like the other can be confusing also to many parents.

So emotionally intense is really a description. It's not a diagnosis. So many of them may end up being diagnosed with maybe some of them might be in the autism spectrum. Some might end up being diagnosed with ADHD or a number of. other different diagnosis or some of them may defy diagnosis. Yeah, of course.

Some might never get a diagnosis. Some can might have anxiety, have different kind of trauma.  We see lots of them in the adoption and foster homes. We, like, there's a lot of different reasons. It can, and can be learning differences. Also, a child that has speech delay can be very frustrating for a child that cannot be able to express themselves the way they want, or, and in their head, it's clear, but it's not going out.

So it's very frustrating. So there's many reasons why a child might be emotionally intense, and you're right, it's not a diagnosis. It's a word that I use, and I've heard a few other people use. It's really a description so that, People who don't have a diagnosis can feel like there's like, yeah, they're, they can relate, you know?

Yes. And I would say, I know instantly when someone, as one of those child, they get it. Like it's clear like . Yes. What? It's really, really clear. And when they don't, they're like, what does that mean instantly? I know they don't have an and emotionally at that scale. So if you think you have one, you have one.

It's not a question . Yeah, that is true. So if a listener here can relate. then the strategies that we're going to discuss today are going to help you. And just because you don't have a diagnosis doesn't mean that you cannot benefit from this kind of support. And just because there's no diagnosis doesn't mean then, Oh  then it is my fault.

 So what are the different factors behind an emotionally intense child that could be influencing this? Because I know there are so many misconceptions about this. Like, for example, here, when there's an emotionally intense child, Oh, that child must be spoiled. The parents must have spoiled the child, or maybe the child was given everything they want and never allowed to handle frustration.

That's why at the slightest thing they get frustrated. So what are the possible factors? I would say there's an important distinction to make here between a child that is just trying what we say manipulate, which is very rare, like and young children never really manipulate adults like that's an adult conception of things.

Yes, exactly. That is an adult interpretation. Yeah, yeah, but there's some kids that will like, for example, you see a child in a store next to the counter that will say, I want chocolate, and then the parents say no, and the child would like, Trump their feet on the ground saying, I want chocolate. That kid is not emotionally intense.

That's just a kid that wants something and that is affirming themself. And that's just normal in the development. At some point it will pass. But the child at the counter that you say no to a chocolate bar and just melt on the floor, that's an emotionally intense child. The difference is that the first one controls the reaction. 

They are in control of what's happening. Yes, they are stomping their feet because they're not happy, but they're still in control. The other one is not in control, so it's not their fault. They just lost control when you said no, for many different reasons, but they just cannot handle. And it's not because they were never frustrated, and I can say from experience and from my personal and professional experience, they most likely been told no way more than the other child.

Yes, exactly.  That's what most people don't realize. Yeah, because they have reactions more often that are different than what we expect  societally, like normal. And so they're more often frustrated. They're more often tell no. They're more often not respected and because they feel things differently.

They're not emotionally intense for no reason. And most of the time they have.  Sensory issues. So for example, the noise in the store, in a grocery store, can be very intense and the light can be very intense. There are lots of people and so for them those are all interpreted in their body in a different way and I'm not an OT so I won't go in details.

And that I'm  sure you must have had OTs on your podcast at some point. Well, actually at our website,  discerningparenting. com, we do have a course about sensory processing that delves more into that.  Right. So I won't go there, but yeah, that's one of the, the reason and most emotionally intense kids do have sensory processing issues for different reasons. 

And so that makes it that lots of things in life are just harder to deal with. So it's, it's as if you're going somewhere and. You were like in the, in the store, just crank everything up. Crank the volume at the max, crank the light at the max so you have trouble looking and makes it like you're in a festival with lots of people all around you that are touching you all the time.

This is how they experience life every single second of every day. So it's, and it's just an example because there's many different ways  to experience, but that would be like a way to try to understand what their experience is. So for those who have emotional, like sensory issues, and if it's like I was telling some, a child that has trouble expressing themselves, they've tried many times in the same day to express something they wanted to express, but he could not.

So like, Imagine that you are trying to talk and sometimes you're trying and the words are not coming. It all happens sometimes. We're tired and we're like, oh, you know what, what, what I wanted to say. But it's always like that all the time. Everything you want to try to say, you're blocked by the fact that you cannot.

 So there's a reason why those kids are, it's just the demand on them are not lower. They're much higher. It's the opposite. So yes, they will melt down. They break because. They are, this, the context, life, society, the parent, the school, we are asking too much for what they are able to do. And it's not our fault as parents.

 It's, in general, we just don't know that's what's happening. And the school is not built for them. And the society in general is not built for them. And so we are asking way more. That's why they are like that, not because they they've not been asked enough or they've been spoiled. It's not that at all.

It's the opposite. And I love how you talked about the difference between a child whose reaction is controlled versus a child who just has a meltdown. Because it can be difficult to distinguish between the two. And to some casual bystanders, they may not be able to distinguish, they may see a child having a meltdown because of sensory overwhelm, and they're going to assume that that is a child who is controlling their reaction and acting that way.

So these parents can end up being judged. They can be told that it's their fault. They can be told that  it's  because of bad parenting, or sometimes they accuse the child of being just a bad child. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's like.  We don't, and yeah, sometimes we do, we shouldn't, but a two year old who's having a meltdown on the floor is kind of a normal thing, like, we assume that two year old will have those temper tantrums, which is not a temper tantrum at all, it has nothing to do with temper, it has just things to do with their brain development, they cannot control.

But emotionally intense kids can have similar,  Meltdowns. That's why I'm not using temper tantrums. It's really meltdowns because it's, it's in their brain. It's in their limbic system. It's, it's not because they're a bad child. It's not because their parents are bad. It really is because the child is struggling more for some reasons.

And we can help support that. But it still is something that will be ongoing, and most likely will never really go away in most cases. There will still be some things, even in adulthood. The difference is that adults have much more control of what's happening. If I don't feel like going to the store today, I most likely won't go.

My child doesn't have a say in that in most of the time. So if they had a bad day, they will be forced to follow me around if I want to,  which is not the case for me as an adult. And if I'm not good at being with lots of people, I might choose to work from home, which the kids cannot choose most of the time.

So as adults, we can adapt our surroundings to fit our needs much better. Kids don't have that control. So that's why we feel like this is going away. But the more a child has control, the more they can lower the external demands on them and then have their nervous system be calmer because they can control the surrounding more.

And the younger the child, the less control they have.  Yeah, so there are really so many obstacles that, emotionally intense kids and their parents face. And especially in our society, well earlier we were just discussing about how society expects kids to fit this certain mold. This is what a good child is, this is what a well behaved child is, and these kids do not fit that bill.

No, not at all. Like, we expect kids to basically be pictures in a phone, like, sit still and be quiet and this is not, honestly, this is just not a child. Like, let's be honest, that should not be expected of children. No children ever should be expected to sit still And be quiet and cute. It's not the role of a child.

That's the role of a photo.  That's true. And I guess this is a common experience. Like, you are halfway across the world. You're all the way in Quebec, Canada. And I am here in Asia. So we thought this was just an expectation here. But apparently, it's a common thread. Yeah, everywhere. I think it can vary a little bit from country to country.

And there's of course, some movement that will be more about like positive parenting and supporting the kids and, but still everywhere, like I've, I would say here we have in general in Quebec, a mix of French and North American culture, and it's not too strict. But still, when you have a child that is doing a meltdown on the floor, people will judge all the time, it's not a question, and when I go to people's house and my kids are touching everything they're not supposed to touch,  and cannot sit still, and they will be judged and I will be judged, so I, this isn't it.

In international experience, at least, I would say Norton experience might be less common in their southern countries, where in general kids have more freedom. But then again, it really depends from culture to culture. But yeah, Norton and Mersefier, I would say it's pretty common.   Yeah, thank you for sharing that.

 So now that we understand what, parents of emotionally intense kids can be up against, can you share with us strategies that they can do?  I would say the most important one that no parents want to hear is self care. And I know it's like something we hear all the time and we're like, Oh no, she's not doing that for real.

But yeah, the thing is. We cannot help a child calm down if we are not calm down.  There's something that's called co regulation, which is when we calm our own nervous system, we can help, just by being close to someone, help them calm their own nervous system. It's not magic.  It's just Yeah, there's a power in that.

So if we have a calm nervous system, we can help the child calm down. And we can really fast see how the grocery store example do the opposite most of the time. Because we are in a public place, the child starts to act out in some way because something is not happening and I, like,  I can pretty much say it happened to 100 percent of parents that grocery store experience.

So the child's starting to act up and so we are starting to stress because people are looking and they're more just the child is acting up, the more we are stressing, because we feel judged, we feel the everybody looking at us, and the more we stress, the more the child is stressing, and because the child sends that stress, and so it escalates real fast, and the minute we raise our voice, we send the child in that meltdown, and not saying that to, give you any kind of  guilt about that, we all yell.

That's just international parenting. Like, every parent will lose that temper once in a while, that's just normal.  But still, that's part of what's happening. So the more we, and the more we try to break, like, Take privileges away and, give punishment. And the more we say those things, the more the child goes into a meltdown.

So it's just making things worse and worse and worse. But that's what we're told to do. We're told to say to a child, stop yelling. Otherwise, you're not going to get, I don't know, that treat that you wanted. Or, but then when we say that, we are sending the child more and more in dysregulation.  And so the first thing is to be able to us stay calm, which is Huge.

It's hard, especially in public,  and it's a long work on ourself. It's not like go to the spa once,  once a month and you're, no, that's not it at all. Like, I've never went to a spa in 15 years. I'm a parent and that's not happening, but. It's daily practices, and I want to say, like, it can start you, like, seconds a day, just little, little, little things sometimes, you can, maybe you're taking a coffee or a tea and just enjoy this warm sip that you're getting before you have to put it in the microwave because you left it on the side, or You're just looking at your child playing alone for five minutes, and you're just enjoying those five minutes.

It can be very small.  Working on our own self care, our own self regulation is the first step.  So that at some point, when our kid is melting down in a grocery store, we can block the judgment coming from around, because They will.  And just focus on what our kids need. And if our kids needs is we leave the cart full of food in the middle of the aisle and we leave the store, be it.

We will be judged, the kids will be judged, the store clerk will be mad. That doesn't matter. We leave with the child.  It can be something else. It can be just talking to the child. But in general, when they're like that, talking does nothing else than making things worse. So it  really is calming ourselves.

And  I hate when we say, we see everywhere, just stay calm. Yeah, as if it was that easy. That's not easy at all. At all. It's a long work and it's a work that has to be done. Out of those situations, on an everyday, ongoing basis, if you nurture your nervous system and you keep your nervous, it's like a, it's like a glass.

If you fill a glass with water halfway, there's still place to put some more water, but if you, your glass is always full because you're always stressed, the little stress drop you add, the glass will just be everywhere and spill everywhere. It's the same if we keep our nervous system and our stress low.

All the time, when there's new stress, it stays in the glass, it doesn't spill. So that's, that would be the way to illustrate that, if we are always at stress. Always at the, that nervous system,  like, in fight or flight almost mode, the little drop will put us in fight or flight mode and we won't react the way that the child will need.

And that's true for every parent and every child. It's just way more true for parents of emotionally intense kids because those re situations will happen much more often. I love how you talked about self care in a way that is realistic. It's not the commercialized view that we often see on social media and how you emphasize that, as parents, we need to be kind to ourselves.

Yes,  really. And it's so easy to say those things, but it's not easy to do them. Like, on an everyday basis, we are having trouble and a lot of society are not putting any priority  on the parents well being. It's all about the child, but the parents is not a priority on the well being, like it's, it's not really important, or like you said, it's like publicity and it's the opposite, it's self care that is not just not doable for parents that are busy.

And there's really huge pressure for parents to measure up to a certain standard and have their kids measure up to a certain standard. Yeah, and I'm, I know, I mean, I think in Asia, it's, that might be. Even worse, like here we have, like, for example, the elementary school or high school our kids are going to won't have any impact on the university they will go to or what they can do in life.

So  that lowers the pressure, I would say. We don't have to, and there are still people that are like, worrying about that. But the reality is that it has really little impact. You can be basically anything you want, no matter the  Preschooled you're going to that won't have any impact and I know in some places in the world.

That's not true  But it's still the pressure is still there Like I remember vividly being in like gym class with my child and people talking about all their after school activities and I was like I have two child, and I alternate one session, that child has one activity, and next session, the other child will have that activity, and that's it. 

Because I could not deal with more than that, with everything that was coming with, and I didn't really know at that point, the emotional intensity, because it meant dealing with the other child during that activity, and just going out the door was a struggle at all the time, and going back home was a struggle, and so It was just too much to deal with, and so lowering the expectation for ourself, even if the society has more expectation, is also something that is very important and very hard.

 Yeah, that's true. We always say that there's no one size fits all to parenting. So there are all these can never fail, 100 percent effective parenting strategies that might work for, yeah, they might work for some kids, but not necessarily for all kids and maybe not for emotionally intense kids. So could you give examples of these strategies that might sound nice?

We might see them all over social media.  Maybe parents keep trying them, but it's just not working. Yeah, I would say everything that is related to consequences or rewards  which is very, very common everywhere, won't work.  The minute you give consequences that are not true natural consequences, like I'm not saying child, shield your child from every consequences of what their own, they're doing,  we cannot.

impose any kind of natural consequences. And a lot of what we're seeing around tries to convince us that it's possible, but it's not. A natural consequence is a natural consequence. And some things don't have immediate natural consequence, like brushing your teeth. I'm sorry, but if a child is not brushing their teeth tonight, nothing's going to happen tonight. 

It will take months before there's a consequence and most child won't, like little child won't do the math.  So you cannot have a natural consequence to not brushing your teeth. That makes sense. That day, that just doesn't exist. And you have to look at why they're not brushing their teeth.  Exactly. So there's a reason.

Most of the time, if they refuse, it's a sensory reason. There's something that is bothering them. Yeah, they can be bored. So then you can try singing a song. You can, like, there's many reasons why a child won't brush their teeth. It can be the taste of the toothpaste. It can be because the, the friction in their mouth is disturbing them.

It can be because they don't like the temperature of their water.  can't be because it's something they need to do every day and our ADHD kids for example doing the same thing every day just gets really really boring fast and so it's just finding what's be like underneath the reason why they don't want to do something and find and it's hard.

I call it play detective. We all have to play detective all the time for every little thing in our life to find the reasons. But when we do,  things just click and they go well after that. And on the other side of the spectrum, another thing that we hear a lot is like, name their emotion. On the more parenting, like positive parenting side,  a lot of the time it's not working for those kids and even for neurodivergent kids like autism ADHD and all the dyslexia, dyscalculia at their, so all the neurodivergent kids, most of the time we are not naming the right emotions  and so we are not Even, not just not helping, we are making things worse on the long run because they are led to question their own inner experience.

And I won't go into interoception, that's another OT thing, but it's, still is an issue because then they, They cannot, they are told you're mad, but in fact they were not mad. They were itch, like there was an itching, itching thing in their sweater. They were not mad. They were really uncomfortable. But then people are saying you're mad, you're mad, you're mad, you're mad all the time when they have something itching them because they look mad on the outside.

They're not mad. Yes, because their emotions, what they show outwardly, their behavior does not always match what they are thinking or feeling or going through. Exactly. Exactly. So they're. They are told again and again that they're mad. It's not relating. They're not, they're like, I'm not, no, I'm not mad, but you keep telling me I'm mad when I have something that itches.

So maybe when something itches, I'm mad, which makes the connection that makes no sense, but we are giving them that. So it's, and again, it's not nobody's fault. We are trying our best and we are told to do that. And It's a good parenting to help kids label emotion, but we're learning more and more that for lots of kids, it's not good parenting, sadly, and it's hard to know that,  because that's a lot of what we hear around, but It's, and is there a very clear answer to what to do instead?

Sadly, no, because it's not easy that way. It's not that easy because those kids all have very different experiences of the world. It depends on the child, what their developmental level is, how much language they have. Yeah, and if there are sensory like, and sensory processing is very complex and so that can be in different ways and different sensory level and also all of those things can vary greatly from one day to the next.

So one day your child can be in a situation and handle it perfectly well, in a perfectly social, like socially acceptable way, and the next day the exact same situation won't go well at all. And that's often what, Why people think it's because the child doesn't want to. But no. If the child could decide, most of the time, they would decide to do the things the same way all the time.

If your child is not reacting the same way in the same situations, it's most of the time because there's something else. That day, they  too much, there's too much stimulation for XYZ reasons. And so, It's because there's external factors that have an influence on what's happening and can be internal too.

They might have a tummy ache that day and so it sends them in complete disruption. But I mean it's not the situation in itself. The situation isn't the same, but their experience is different because there's other factor that is playing into that. Well, thank you for sharing that. And I know just by sharing this, a lot of parents who may be going through the same thing will feel comforted.

They will know that it's not because they've been making mistakes all these, all this time, but Because they just have to find the strategies that are suited for them, for their situation, and for their unique child. It's not easy, like, I don't want to dial that down. It's not like, okay, I'm just gonna flip a switch and things are gonna, no, it's, it's gonna be an everyday finding the right solution.

And lots of the time, I still don't know what's happening with my kids, because they don't know themselves what's happening, even the teens. And so it's a lot of being able to listen to them and observe what's going on and try to understand and validate. So instead of saying, you're feeling that, like, could you be angry? 

If they say no, they say no. It's they know better, even if they are have trouble. Labeling their own emotion, but  and even that can be questioning, but still it's better than just labeling it without letting them say no. But yeah, it's, it's not going to be, it's not an easy road, and it's not an easy road, and It's something that definitely you need support with, if you can, it's really helpful and even if it's just like other parents that are going through the same thing, it's very valuable support to feel that some other parents get it and don't judge you.

It's very, very useful. Yeah, so if you're listening. Yeah, if you're listening to this and you can relate, know that you're not alone. This is very, very common. There's a huge group of parents who are going through the same thing that you are. And there's a huge group of kids who defy classification  who may be facing the same struggles that your kids are going through in their own different ways.

And  it's your mission, Anouk, and it's also my mission in Discerning Parenting. It's our mission to help  these kids because  we want, we want to break free from wanting to box parents and kids into, like, you have to be like this. We advocate for inclusivity and understanding. I mean, I wish we lived in a world that were more inclusive and more understanding, but I don't know.

You know that's what we're working for. But while we're getting there  There's a lot more still to do.  Yes, exactly.  Definitely a lot of work still to do, but there's a lot of people working.  To that, with that goal in mind. There's lots of people doing that. So I'm hopeful that in a few years, few with lots of S's, but  at some point we will get there.

It's just going to take time. And in the meantime, we cannot wait because our kids are there and they're growing up and we are experiencing that every day. And it's very, very tiring to experience that every day, especially in the Yeah. social settings that we are on.  The social demands are just really high.

And sometimes  there are all these unwritten rules, all these things that they have to put together and be able to do all at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, we could do really far in that, like what school is asking of a child that can be very, very hard on them. So it's, we tend to forget that.

So, this is a huge, huge topic and I know we could talk all day,  definitely,  we would never exhaust this topic. So where can they go to learn more from you and about your work? Sure. I also have a podcast, which is called Parenting the Intensity.  And I, my, my business is called Family Moments, so my website address is family moments.ca 'cause I'm in Canada.

And yeah, I would say those are the, the, the best place to find more information and more resources about all of it. Yeah, and if you're not yet signed up to our mailing list, head over also to discerningparenting. com slash toolkit, where we have a free parenting toolkit with topics like tantrums and activities as well.

And you'll also be signing up to our mailing list where we'll also send you regular tips and inspiration. And for both of us, it's our  belief that there is no one size fits all the parenting. So we're not going to force you to follow like some parenting advice. Like you have to do this. Otherwise, like I have seen this on Facebook ads, like you have to do this.

Otherwise your child's brain will be damaged. So  you know, we don't do fear mongering. Nope.  No, definitely not. No, there's like those titles that say do those five things so your child will or don't do those five things otherwise your child won't. I hate those titles. That's just clickbait. Clickbait, yes.

It's just to bring people in and most of the time it's not really useful, so. Stay away from any, anything that is very categoric.  Yeah. Black and white is never real. We are always in the gray with kids. It's just with human beings in general. Yeah. Any last words you want to share?  I think we covered the most important part.

I would say it's just really. Like, listen to yourself  when you think something is not going well, not, not quite there, not quite right, it's something is not for your child, listen to yourself, you're, you're right, it's just sometimes it's very hard to listen to that instinct because society trained us not to.

But, you know, you are the expert of your child, the best person to know. And if someone is telling you something that feels really wrong, listen to yourself and go get some more information. You're 99 percent of the time, you're right. Yeah. So if you feel like maybe you need help with managing your child's behavior, or you have worries about your child's development, then everybody else is seeing.

You know, there's nothing wrong. Your child seems smart. Maybe it's just your parenting that you have to adjust then. You know, maybe you need to get a team on board with you so that could involve somebody to help you make a, to, to  do an evaluation, you can have a team to help you. But even on that team, even on that team, if some people you don't.

If you feel it's the right people,  go see someone else, like, listen to yourself. It's not because someone is a parenting expert in any way, even if they have a medical degree. Some people might not, might not have the right answer for your situation and that's okay. Someone else will. I'm not saying to go against medical advice, but to go get another opinion at least.

Yeah, and I believe that you'll be able to find a team that you can trust to help you because this isn't a journey that you should go alone. So if you feel that there's someone on, on the team whom you feel might not be fully on board, then I guess we also find the ones that align with our values.

Definitely. Definitely. And it's important to listen to ourselves for that and to trust the people that we are working with. Yeah.   📍 Thank you so much. It has been a privilege to  have this eye opening and inspiring chat with you. Thank you for having me. It was really nice sitting with you.