And so, but talking about children, there isn't an exact age. What's more important is the child's level of maturity. And what I encourage people to think about is, first of all, How, how much self control the child has, because that's something children need to learn and they don't all learn it at the same point, but it's important when you have a dog there, you don't want a kid that gets really out of control.
Welcome to Discerning Parenting, the podcast for parents of kids age 12 and under who have learned the hard way that a one size fits all approach to parenting won't shift the needle for you, your child, or your family. Together, We'll explore intentional strategies that see both you and your kids thrive.
Parenting strategies based on well conducted research in the areas of child development, brain science, and neurodiversity need practical for you. What if you let go of perfect and embrace discerning parenting in your family instead? If you feel like you've been stumbling your way through. And you're ready to leave behind fight or flight mode parenting.
Then this is the podcast for you. I'm Dr. Victoria Ang-Nolasco, Developmental and Behavioral Pediatrician and Positive Parenting Coach, on a mission to help you release your parenting guilt, so you can become laser focused on what will truly work for you.
I'm thinking of getting a dog for my child or my child is asking for a dog. He really loves dogs, or she really enjoys playing with our neighbor's dog. So we're thinking of getting our kids their own pets. So if you have these questions, when is it the right time to get your child a pet? And how to choose?
And what are the other things that we need to consider? Then you will love this episode. We invited psychiatric nurse and dog trainer Jane Rosenblum to our episode today, and this is the second of two episodes. In the first episode, we talked about If you have a dog and you're getting the dog ready for when you bring home your baby and if that is your concern, be sure to listen to our previous episode.
Now, you have your kids and you're thinking of getting a dog and this is a common question that I receive from parents. They are aware of the benefits of dog ownership. for people of all ages, including kids. So they're thinking, is it time for us to experience these benefits of dog ownership? So welcome Jane.
It's so nice to see you here. And I'll just give a quick introduction to Jane. So she began her professional work life as a psychiatric nurse, and she worked with families with children. So She is an expert about mental health and helping people through mental health challenges. And in her work, she noticed that parents often had concerns about the family dog around their children.
And 25 years ago, she became a dog trainer so she can help parents promote safe, friendly relationships between dogs and their children. So she counsels families as a good dog trainer. And her goals are safety between the dog and the baby, a calm and peaceful home, and a plan for parents to manage their dogs around their babies, toddlers, and older children.
Welcome, Jane. Welcome to the Discerning Parenting podcast. Well, thank you. It's very nice to be here. And I love talking about this subject and helping families so that they can have a good time with their dogs and children and everything. Yeah, So let's answer the question. How do we know that the child is ready to have a dog? Okay, well this is something people ask me a lot and it sounds like they ask you the same question too. Often children really start asking for a dog and they ask over and over again and the parents just are not sure is this a good idea or not. Well, let me give you just a couple you know, several guidelines about children and what to look for.
How would you decide if your unique child is ready for a dog? First of all, I would say, I, I know people sometimes want to get, I mean, perhaps a puppy with a baby with the idea that they can grow up together. Well, first of all, before the baby is even walking, the dog is going to be mature. So the dog is going to be all grown up.
And I can tell you, and this goes for any situation raising a puppy is like having another baby. It really takes a lot of time and a lot of attention, and so that's something to consider. And I think with a very young child, a toddler, crawling baby, it does not work well to have a puppy. Because they just, they're rough, they bite, they chew everything, they run around, it's just overwhelming.
Yeah, imagine having two very, very active beings in your home at the same time. And as a parent, you're not going to know what to do next or who to pay attention to at that time. Yes, I know. Well, somebody said to me once you you're dealing with two, two creatures who have no impulse control. And so, but talking about children, there isn't an exact age, what's more important is the child's level of maturity.
And what I encourage people to think about is, first of all, How, how much self control the child has, because that's something children need to learn, and they don't all learn it at the same point, but it's important when you have a dog there, you don't want a kid that gets really out of control. I mean, I saw one family where they had a dog, it was a nice dog, but it was a little bit nervous.
And they had a four year old boy who was so active and three or four times a day this boy would run around the house and he would yell and he would throw things and so on. I mean, it wasn't, you know, he wasn't being a bad boy or anything. He was just very active. And this dog, Got more and more nervous and unfortunately they eventually did have to find another home for the dog because the dog was so afraid of this child that they were afraid he was going to bite.
So, you know, look at your child's behavior. Can the dog, can the, can the child be calm around and the child generally a calmer Child who can control himself. It's what what is his attitude toward animals? I mean, there's some children tend to be very kind and gentle with animals. Others kind of want to play kind of roughly.
They want to rough house with the dog and so on. And if you have a young child that's roughhousing with a dog, you know, it's probably not going to go real well for the child. So, it's not true. Some parents, they might believe that, okay, I have this very active toddler with, you know difficulty in impulse control, and then they're hoping that, oh, I will get the dog because dogs can be calming and help the young child calm down.
So it's not necessarily so, but sometimes the child who is hyperactive can end up, I mean, I've seen kids who like, bulldog's tails and end up shoving the dog in ways that are just play for them, but can be stressful for the dog. So I guess if there are parents who are hoping that a dog of a supposedly calm or gentle breed will, will calm down a toddler who is hyperactive, maybe it has to be the other way around.
Like the, the child needs to be able to calm down first. And instead of expecting the dog to help the child to calm down. Yeah, I, I wouldn't look for a dog to change your child's temperament. And I think with toddlers, they're, Really too young to be able to interact well with with a new dog. I think I think that stage.
Kids are just a little young. I've seen four year olds, and it often doesn't go real well because they're just they're too young and they're too impulsive and. So if you already have a dog, that's a little different because you've been working with it. But to bring a new dog into the home, and particularly, you know, you don't know the dog that well either.
And it can take a dog months to adjust to a new home. So it's better if the children are a little older. know, one thing I want to mention, and I think this is very important, and that is when parents decide that they are going to get a dog. I've seen parents who promise their children that the child can pick out the dog they want.
And I've seen some real problems with this when the parents make that promise to a child of any age. And then they have problems and I've worked with people where the parents have said to me they knew from the beginning that the dog was going to be a problem, but they'd already promised the children.
And so they felt like they couldn't go back on their promise. So they took the dog and they did have problems and it. Really was chaotic. So what what I suggest to people is that if they decide they're going to get a dog, I think it's better and you can tell me about this as somebody who works with children, not to tell them too far in advance, because they get so excited and they just can't forget it.
I wait until they've made the parents have made the decision, and then let the parents look for a dog that they think is suitable. So this isn't like a toy, like you bring them to the toy store, you can buy any toy you want because a dog is a living being. Well, right. It's a living being and you, you know, you never know exactly what the dog is going to be like.
And so I think it works best if the parents make the decision. They don't tell the child until everything is set. Because if you tell the dog, the child they can choose any dog, I mean, they tend to fall in love with the first dog they see, and that may not be the best dog for that family. And, you know, consider that, how active the dog needs to be, think about walking, where the dog is going to sleep, and, and, you know.
So on but wait until things are set and then talk to the children about it I think that works best and the children will be happy with any dog that the parents bring home and there's a much better Chance that it's going to work out. Well that way well, I just, I was going to say, it's, it's a little like, like getting a car.
I mean, you wouldn't just go out and get the first car you see, and you certainly wouldn't let your children decide what kind of car you're going to get. You would check it out carefully. And you know, a dog is, you're going to have the dog for years. You hope so. Take, take at least as much time and care as you would getting a car.
Yeah, that's true. My son wants a red sports car that looks like one of his Hot Wheels play sets. So, definitely not letting him choose a car. If they decided that, okay My kids are ready to have a dog and then they also know that, okay, I'm going to be the one to choose the dog for them. How do they choose a dog that would be suitable for a family with kids?
Like, what do they look for? What breed? Okay, well first of all, Breed, the breed of dog is less important than the dog's temperament, personality. And people do often ask me what's a good breed of dog for children. In general, dogs that are bred to be family pets like Labrador Retrievers or Golden Retrievers or A smaller dog, that tends to be calm, but generally, you think about your own family.
How active are you? Are you a family that's out going to parks on the weekend? Do you do long hikes? Do you like to go camping? I don't know if you do those things where, where you are, but, or if your family that stays home and is very quiet, then you choose a dog who will fit in with your family.
So that that is the first thing. I would look for a dog that has had experience with children, if possible, if you're getting an adult dog, if you're getting it, A rescue dog or a dog that's already mature, what I recommend to people is they look for a dog that is two and a half or three years old, at least, younger dogs.
Sadly, a lot of dogs, get taken to shelters when they're under a year old. Because, Dogs go through an adolescence just the way people do, and they can get hard to handle at that age, but you don't really know what the dog's mature temperament is going to be. So, if you look for a dog that is at least three years old, you have a much better idea of what that dog is going to be like.
Or if you're getting a puppy and you get a young puppy, then you can raise the puppy in your family. That, that's a whole different thing. But I would look for a dog that's friendly and calm, not fearful. Fearful dogs can often be very fearful around children. So I would look for a dog that's confident, Calm, meet the dog and, you know, the parents, if they're just going to choose a dog and bring it home for the children, the parents can meet the dog, but maybe they can see the dog around some other children and see how the dog reacts.
If he seems to like children, if he feels comfortable around children, calm dog is generally better than a dog that's very excitable. So, I would look, look for that. And the level of activity, if the dog has had some training, if it's an adult dog and it's already had some training, that's always a plus too.
And if the dog is coming from a shelter or a breeder. Then ask a lot of questions about that dog and find out as much as you can. So I think those, those are good tips for picking out the right kind of dog. Thanks for sharing them. And I'm glad you also said that it's not necessarily about the breed, but about the temperament because just to share.
In our neighborhood, we had a concern with a few dog attacks and then they released a memo that had certain rules like, for example, be sure to keep your dog inside your residence so that they cannot go and wander around when you walk them. And then there, there were some restrictions around using leashes and all of that, but then they also went on to enumerate something like there are certain dogs where their breeds are known to be gentle, so they can be exempted from the restrictions.
And then they enumerated a few breeds that would be exempted from the restrictions. And offhand, I was wondering that. That might be a bit unfair or discriminatory or something, but maybe if they have restrictions, they probably should apply to all rather than having restrictions. And then if you have a certain breed they do not have to meet those restrictions.
Well, I agree with you because that, that is assuming that every dog of a particular breed is going to have the same kind of behavior. And that's just not the case anymore than it is with people, you know, it would be like saying. Well, all, all boys are more active than girls. Well, you know, there are boys that are more active than girls, but there are some very active girls.
And there are some boys that are very quiet or, you know, may prefer to sit and read a book or something like that. So it, it, generalizing like that about dog breeds and that, that's why I, I don't do it. Because. You know, there can be exceptions, that may have to do with the dog's breeding, or it may have to do with their experiences, how they were raised, just as with children, you know, if they're raised in a, in a way that's traumatic for them, they're going to react very differently.
And that's just as true of dogs. So, yeah, I think it's important to evaluate. Yeah, and I guess if there's one thing that we're going to take away from the suggestions that Jane has shared is that getting a dog for a child is a well thought out and recent decision. So discerning parenting, it's something that you as a parent will need to discern and discuss with your family.
So it's not like getting a toy. I know I've heard of situations where dogs are given out as toys. party favors. So definitely please don't do that. That's not a good idea. Okay. That, that one I hadn't heard. No, don't, don't give a dog as a gift to somebody who may not want it. Or like, I guess we see this in the movies, like the child it's not something that you planned.
Then suddenly the child gets attacked. A dog under the Christmas tree on Christmas morning, so These aren't meant to be surprises, but it's something that we really plan for. So if they've already had the dog how do we help the dog and the kids to get along? So how much dog care should children do?
And how can parents teach your kids? Because I know you say that dogs are a great opportunity for parents to teach kind and humane treatment of animals, not just of animals, but also of all living beings. Right. Yeah. And that, that's a great question. I'm glad you asked about that because this is something that comes up a lot.
I know, sometimes. Children make all kinds of promises when they want a dog. I'll take care of it. I'll do all the work. I'll do the feeding. I'll brush it and so on. And often that works just great for two, three weeks and then the novelty wears off and, you know, picking up after the dog and so on isn't isn't that much fun all the time.
So first of all, I think what can help is if you discuss it, if parents talk to the children about it, they can get to discuss how they're going to do it. And it depends on the child's age. Now, if a child is young, you know, six, seven years old, which probably is about the, the youngest, that it's a good idea to get a dog.
That child is really, it's not safe for that child to be doing all the dog care. It should always be done with adult supervision and helping the child, teaching the child to gradually do that. I think especially with a new dog, it's good to keep food out of it. Because when children give food to dogs, the dogs can start to see the child as a source of food.
Okay. And that is not a healthy thing. If the child is eating something, the dog may try to take it away, or the dog may get demanding about getting food from, from the child. So that, that's something I would reserve for older children. But, well, I'll give you one tip as far as walking, because this is one thing that comes up with children.
They want to walk the dog. And if it's a young child, it is not safe. I mean, the child needs to be able to handle the dog safely, be strong enough. And, you know, a loose dog, especially if you have loose dogs in your area, if a loose dog runs up to a dog that a child is walking, the child is not going to know how to handle that.
But something you can do that helps us to use two leashes, The adult holds one leash, the child can hold the other and feel like he's walking the dog. Or the adult can hold the leash and let the child hold part of the same leash. Children can brush a dog if the dog likes to be brushed. If he doesn't, help to get the dog used to it because all dogs love to be brushed once they're used to it.
But some dogs are not used to it, and if they don't like being brushed, then you don't want the child to be the first one to go in and do that. They can help their nice games that children can play with dogs, not roughhousing. I think it's better if the child not be, very physical with the dog.
And one thing, and this, this is important, actually, I want to say, and that is a lot of children want to hug and kiss the dog. Dogs don't hug and kiss each other. Licking is not, not a kiss. It's not the same thing as a human kissing, and dogs don't understand hugs and kisses, and sometimes dogs can really feel trapped if a child puts his arm around the dog and, and holds on tight.
So that's something it's good to discourage people, children from doing. If children want to kiss the dog, something they can do is kiss their hand and blow a kiss to the dog. That's a nice way to do it. Yeah. But, there are lots of games, that can be good to, to play with a dog. But it's really important to be, for parents to be there supervising.
Mm hmm. When the child is play unless it's an older child and it's a very calm dog and the dog has been around. I mean, I think it's a good rule of thumb to to keep up close supervision until the dog has been in the family for probably five or six months. Just to make absolutely sure, because dogs do adjust to a new home slowly.
One other thing I wanted to say, because sometimes I've seen parents get very frustrated when the child starts out. Doing some of the dog care, and then, then they don't do that anymore, and sometimes parents threaten the child that, you know, if you don't keep doing what you're supposed to, we're going to just get rid of the dog.
I really hope people will not do that in the first place. It's terrible for the dog to be sent away from the only home that he knows. It's very traumatic for the dog and, you know, chances are not good for that dog having a good situation after that. And you can speak to this too. It, it, I think it gives the child the message that if something isn't working the way they expect it to, they, it's okay just to get rid of it.
That they don't have to work out problems. So what, what do you think about that as a child expert? Yeah, well, definitely that is not recommended because it's not just dramatic for the dog, but also for the child, because I remember if you went through the thoughtful process of selecting the dog, then the child actually loves the dog And as we said, this should be a joint responsibility.
So rather than making threats and as a parent coach, I really never recommend making threats, whether it's about the behavior towards dogs or about anything else. But we Look into the situation, like why does the child not do it anymore? We understand them. So is something preventing them from doing it?
Is it does it have anything to do with, maybe the routine? They have to set it in the routine. Maybe the child needs some support around doing it. So there should be open communication with the child and collaborating together on a solution. So how can we get this dog care done in a way that is respectful to the whole family, including the dog?
So definitely thank you for pointing out that we do not want to use threats and definitely not that way. Yeah. Well, that, that's, that's a great answer. That's a really good way to look at it. And, I would say the only exception to that, and I have seen this on occasion, there are times that a dog does bite and the dog is not safe in a home with children and choosing carefully in the first place will help to prevent most of that, but If it doesn't, and it can still happen, that is one situation in which you really might need to find another home for the dog, and that, it can be very upsetting to everybody, but again, you, if, if a dog really is not safe, you can't keep that dog around children either.
Or adults for that matter. So that is a different situation and, but if there's a question of that, that would definitely be a time to first talk to a dog trainer to see if the situation can be worked out. And the fact is that little children, toddlers do get bitten fairly frequently, but often, Almost always.
It's just, it's a matter of lack of supervision. I'll give you a couple of examples. The dog is sound asleep on the floor and the toddler has box full of blocks. And he goes over and dumps the blocks on top of the sleeping dog, and the dog is startled and jumps up and snaps at the child. Well, that's, that's not an aggressive dog.
That is adults who are not supervising and didn't stop that. Or a toddler may run across the floor and trip and fall on the dog. Again, so this is why supervision is so important, but those situations I wouldn't consider that the dog needs to be sent to another home, it's that the parents need, need to be careful about supervising.
So that, that's different from a dog who really intends to bite. But I understand that if you have a young child and then you have a hundred other things to do, it will really be a challenge to give supervision that is that close. So if you feel that you're in a situation like that, then those may be indications that you will need to wait before getting a dog because, I know that, like me, many of the other moms who are listening to this would not really be able to give 100 percent close supervision all the time.
So the, the situations that you talked about, like a child tripping, dumping some toys, those are all things that can really happen. Especially with all the things that, yeah, especially with all of the things that we are doing. And I'm glad you also brought up issues like there are dogs who will need exercise.
So actually all dogs would need that. They would need a place to run and walk around. And that can be difficult because it is quite common for families to live in apartment units. that can be cramped. There's no space for either a child or a dog can run around. And actually recently there have been a lot of dog parks.
They can be indoor spaces like malls. So, they would typically bring a dog to one of these dog parks In a mall and then that is where the dog can play, but it can be a challenge because of course, how often would you have the time to bring a dog to a place like that. So if a family is living in a small space, I know it's not healthy for either the dog or the child, but what can they do or what are their options?
Well, I don't know that there's a perfect answer to that, and I will, since you mentioned dog parks, I want to say to as far as children go. I mean, I have some reservations about dog parks anyway, because there are sometimes problems there. But that is a place to be very careful about children and certainly young children and toddlers, I don't believe should be at a dog park.
There are dogs you don't know running around, they're excited and so on. I don't know if you use dog walkers there here in the United States. There are lots of dog walkers. They can be expensive, but people hire somebody to take the dog out for a walk. That's one solution, sometimes if people have friends that have, maybe they have a friend who doesn't live in an apartment and that friend has a yard and the dogs get along and they can have play dates for the dogs.
Maybe one parent can walk the dog while the other parent stays home with the child. I mean just, you know, trying to work it out as well as you can. And when, when they are at home, I know we, you say, mothers can't be there 100 percent of the time. Of course they can't. And that's when it's good to have ways to separate the dog and the baby for times that you can't be supervising.
And we just call that management. So you, you might put up a baby gate. So the dog is on one side of the baby gate and the baby is. On the other, I mean you still need to be careful that they don't go up to the gate and still interact with each other, that the child isn't teasing the dog. But baby gates, a safe place for a dog in another room where the dog can be with a chew toy, with the door closed so he's so those are the kinds of things that People work out.
There's a lot of information about that on my website on my blog. There are articles about that about all a number of suggestions for managing. Let's say the mother is home alone with the dog and the baby. How is she going to manage? There's an article about that. There's an article about dog parks and how to stay safe.
what to look for in a dog park and so on. So there's a lot more information than we have time for here. Yeah, definitely go check out Jane's resources at yourdogandbaby. com. She has so many wonderful blog articles and she also has books for if you are a dog owner and you have kids definitely you will want to get Jane's books.
So could you tell our listeners about your books? And if you want to get them, head over to her website, and we will also link to the page for her books in the show notes. Can you tell us about your books, Jane? Well, there are e books, there are three of them, and they are for people with, dogs and babies there's one for people before the baby is, is born, there's one for people with a newborn baby, and there's a third one for, parents of crawling babies and toddlers, and a lot of that one is helpful for people with children that are a little older too.
I would say preschool children, you know, up to, up to elementary school, and they're there, and I would look for them. There, there's a description of them, and then when you open them up, there's A lot of information in there. It gives you advice about how to teach your dog certain behaviors that will be helpful, how to keep things safe between the dog and the baby, how to manage.
The dog around the baby and what to do when you can't be there. You cannot be there to supervise. How, how do you handle that there? So a lot of, a lot of helpful information. Oh, thank you so much Jane. And I know so many families are grateful that you went into your advocacy of helping dogs and babies and young kids.
and helping families. And, I know this is really, we're only scratching the surface of all the resources that you offer. So to all our listeners head over to yourdogandbaby. com and be sure also to follow the Discerning Parenting podcast where we share insights about parenting and we also interview guest experts.
first, just like Jane. And if you haven't already, be sure to listen also to our previous episode where we interviewed Jane this time about helping dogs get used to a new baby. So if let's say you have, you have your dog, you have your kids, and eventually you're getting ready to welcome a new baby, definitely that episode is also going to be useful for you.
So any, Anything else that you would like to share with our listeners, Jane, before we wrap up this episode? I think, number one in importance is supervision, but I would also say, that if you need help, dog training help can be very valuable. And I. I always want to suggest that people look for a dog trainer that uses positive dog training methods, just as Dr.
Victoria uses positive parenting methods. It's the same thing. And what those positive dog trainers are called, the term that's used is force free. Force free training. So if you're looking online for a dog trainer, look for force free dog training and also I can help people, online. And so if you go to my website, you'll see there are many options and you can schedule a call with me and I can talk to you about your particular situation.
So if that would be helpful, please make use of it. You can schedule a discovery call with me. Thank you so much, Jane. And for the listeners here who have concerns like the rest of the family doesn't like my dog. So what am I going to do about it? Jane answers that question towards the end of the previous episode.
So be sure to head over to the previous episode. And then if you're not worried about, let's say, welcoming a new baby, you can just scroll over towards the end where Jane gives us some insights. about, having a dog, especially if you live in a multi generational home. So thank you so much, Jane, for taking the time and staying up late to be here with us on the Discerning Parenting podcast.
As we're doing this, it's morning where I am and it's late at night where Jane is. So thank you for sharing your wisdom with us. And we have listeners from all over the world. 📍 So if you have a question that you would like answered on the podcast, email hello at discerningparenting. com. And who knows, we might just choose your question to be our listener Thank you, Jane. Oh, very much. It was great talking to all of you. Bye bye. Bye bye.